Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Cowboys–Packers rivalry

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. (non-admin closure) Mario Jump 83! 10:06, 9 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Cowboys–Packers rivalry

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Contested PROD. Originally proposed with the rationale "There is nothing here to suggest an actual rivalry between these two teams. The fact that they are both teams in the NFL, even in the same conference, means they are bound to play each other on a semi-regular basis, but a rivalry needs some true enmity between the two teams, and none has been demonstrated here." Although content has been added recently to substantiate the periods when the two teams were each other's direct competition for titles and a couple of notable games between them, there is nothing to suggest that there is an actual rivalry between the teams where each of them looks for their matchups against the other when the schedule is released. When they meet each other, there is very little in the way of discussion about continuing a rivalry or igniting old hatreds. It's just another game in the NFL schedule. – Pee Jay 00:49, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions. ^{Engr. Smitty Werben} 03:02, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Texas-related deletion discussions. ^{Engr. Smitty Werben} 03:02, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Wisconsin-related deletion discussions. ^{Engr. Smitty Werben} 03:02, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Popular culture-related deletion discussions. ^{Engr. Smitty Werben} 03:03, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

*Delete per nom. The article is very poorly sourced and a search of Cowboys Packers rivalry does not provide much in establishing this game as a "rivalry" game. Just because teams have played in the playoffs several times does not automatically make them rivals. Frank Anchor^Talk 11:31, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete page for non-existent rivalry. – Sabbatino (talk) 14:39, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. No sourced evidence that this is an actual rivalry. Ultimately this is an essay, not an encyclopedia article. --Kinu ^t/_c 06:52, 24 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete not a major rivalry and it needs reliable sources. Royal broil 05:31, 25 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom. EPIC STYLE ^{(LET'S TALK)} 02:55, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. I dunno, I mean, these two teams do actually have a lot of memorable and significant playoff meetings between them (things like the Ice Bowl, etc.). I get that the article right now is significantly under-developed, but that could very well be an editing issue, not necessarily a deletion issue. We already have rivalry articles for Cowboys–Steelers, Packers–Seahawks, and Cowboys–Texans, and this would appear at first blush to be of similar significance to at least the fist two of those, albeit with many of the significant meetings here occurring in the pre-Internet era. Ejgreen77 (talk) 17:52, 26 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep, although the article is in bad shape, that is not a reason to delete. I once was pretty hesitant about these "rivalry" pages, thinking that they only really should exist for clear and obvious, long-standing rivalries (i.e. Chicago Bears-Green Bay Packers rivalry). But now I look at them in the following lens:

Longstanding? - Yes, 60 years old
Same conference? (so they have and will meet often) - Yes, both in the NFC and have met 37 times.
Notable games against each other - Yes, Ice Bowl, 3 NFC Championship games, met 8 times in the playoffs, The Dez Bryant "No-Catch Game"
Reliable sources identifying the fact that a "rivalry" exists? - Yes: "these two storied franchises have competed in some of the NFL's greatest games" (CBS Sports), "Let’s Admit That the Packers Are the Cowboys’ Top Rival Now" (Texas Monthly magazine), "5 Most Memorable Games Of Green Bay Packers-Dallas Cowboys Rivalry" (Forbes), "Aaron Rodgers' domination of Dallas has changed tune of Packers-Cowboys rivalry" (Sporting News), "Cowboys, Packers set to resume storied playoff rivalry" (Associated Press).

In addition to the articles above, there are a number of print sources on Newspapers.com that reinforce the rivalry status (Wikipedia Newspaper.com accounts no longer provide access to a large amount of these articles, so I can't clip links, see here for the preview of the results of the search): Packers-Cowboys rivalry has history (Arizona Republic), Another big game in Packers-Cowboys rivalry (Manitowoc Herald-Times), The latest 4 decades of huge games: Packers-Cowboys rivalry rich (Northwest Herald), Long Packers-Cowboys rivalry renewed Sunday (Messenger-Inquirer), Packers-Cowboys rivalry has lost some mystique (The Times Leader), and that's just a drop in the bucket of articles on Newspapers.com specifically referencing a rivalry existing. Note that these sources are from across the country, not just local or regional to Wisconsin or Dallas area.

A few important points here:

The rivalry was more dominant in the 60s and 90s, but just because it wasn't recent doesn't take away from its notability
I have provided 10(!) reliable sources in just 30 minutes of searching
The article needs to be improved, but that doesn't mean it should be deleted.

PeeJay, Frank Anchor, Sabbatino, Kinu, Royalbroil, 777burger, Ejgreen77, please take a look at this new information, if you can, and see if it is sufficient to alleviate your concerns about the article. Cheers, « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 17:32, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The "longstanding" and "same conference" argument are baseless. The two teams have only played 37 times, including the playoffs, over 61 seasons. This is three games in five years on average. Under the current schedule rotation, the two teams are only guaranteed to meet once every three seasons, though they can meet more often (if they finish in the same place in their divisions the previous season) or meet in the playoffs. Under the current scheduling rotation (since 2002), they have met only 12 times in 19 years (including two playoff meetings). Also, just because tams have been in the same league for 60+ years does not automatically make them rivals, as you assert. Many other teams have been in the NFL/NFC since 1960 that do not have rivalry pages with the Cowboys. Thank you for presenting the impressive list of sources from a wide array of sources including top national authorities on NFL coverage (such as CBS and the AP) and other national sources. ~~While I stand by my delete vote, it is a "weaker" delete as these reference are much better than what is there now (namely nothing).~~ Frank Anchor^Talk 21:05, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Frank Anchor appreciate the re-review. I'm not necessary saying that all teams that existed for long times are rivals, more importantly that they have been playing each other consistently (3 games in 5 years, as you mentioned) and that they have played in a number of notable games. There are a number of NFC teams that the Packers have played for years, but aren't considered rivals (Arizona Cardinals, for example). I think ten reliable sources specifically calling two teams who play each other as "rivals" is sufficient to establish notability, but respect your opinion. Cheers, « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 21:35, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I have improved, copyedited and added 6 sources to the page. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 22:30, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Meets WP:GNG with sources like this, this, this, this, this, this, this, and this, in addition to the sources that Gonzo fan2007 has already found. Ejgreen77 (talk) 23:06, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Just a note, when these are added to the page, that would be about 16 reliable sources establishing notability for this topic. « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 23:28, 28 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Even though the two teams aren't "rivals" in the traditional regular season/inter-conference sense, I believe there have been played enough significant games in NFL lore to consider it such. At least 5 with the 1966 NFL Championship Game, the Ice Bowl, the 1995 NFC Championship, the Dez Bryant "No-Catch" Game, and the 2016 NFC Divisional game, as well as a Thanksgiving game from 1994 with a memorable Jason Garrett comeback. I believe the sources are also improving, as noted above. Malcolm L. Mitchell (talk) 15:08, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Vote changed to weak keep per the sources presented by User:Gonzo_fan2007 and User:Ejgreen77, provided these are incorporated into the article. These sources range from the local to the national level and establish that more than just a few reporters consider this to be a "rivalry." While I have concerns about the "longstanding" nature of the rivalry, since they have only played 37 games over the course of 60+ years and the teams have often gone multiple seasons at a time without playing each other, there are some notable meetings between the two and several other "rivalry" pages (across the NFL and other sports) have much less sources to go by establishing that a rivalry exists. Frank Anchor^Talk 16:27, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Frank Anchor I have incorporated all of the available sources that were presented here. Note that some of the Newspapers.com articles above were duplicates (the same Associated Press article posted in different newspapers). « Gonzo fan2007 (talk) @ 18:25, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Missvain (talk) 04:02, 31 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep not a traditional divisional rivalry, but these teams have had enough significant meetings to establish the legitimacy of this rivalry, as demonstrated by Ejgreen's sources. LEPRICAVARK (talk) 23:16, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Arguments and coverage presented by Gonzo and Ejgreen are persuasive. Cbl62 (talk) 06:29, 4 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Weak Keep There are RS's calling it a rivalry but I don't think of it as a rivalry in the traditional sense. I think it's just the nature of two old teams having been in the same league for so long that they've been forced to play each other often. Does that form a rivalry? Regardless, there are sources that indicate it's a rivalry so weak keep and perhaps add the additional RS's found from this discussion to help bolster this article. HocusPocus00 (talk) 22:26, 4 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - There is a case to be made that this is a historic rivalry, even if it has abated to nothingness in the current period. Carrite (talk) 18:25, 5 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - while I hate the Cowboys, and am generally leery of "rivalry" articles of teams who are not in the same main entity (in college football that would be league, in MLB, the NFL, and the NHL it would be division - I can't speak to sports leagues in other countries, since I don't follow them), this is one which would meet the specifications of a rivalry. Successful clubs (which the Cowboys and Packers both have been over their histories), who play as frequently as they have in the post-season tend to develop rivalries among the players and their fans. Similar to the 49ers–Giants rivalry. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 03:18, 8 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.